ok, i here alot of people say that they don't like hiphop cuz it's not music. i've been hearin it alot lately and it's startin 2 piss me off. i love hip-hop so much that i bleed it. ya feel me. so i ask this one person why do u think hiphop isn't music, he said because all rappers talk about nonsense, theres no message, and that since theres no band, theres no music. now, not to offend any rock fans, but i thought that was some straight bullish, listen 2 some demonic rock ish, they have a band but all they do is scream, there songs don't have a message but he calls that ish music. my question is, why isn't hip-hop considered music, and why isn't producers considered musians

Lesson of Life (LOL)..

Any brutha that tell ya hiphop ain't music is dumb as f*ck..
Don't even let it piss you off.. and if you do get pissed off tell 'em this:

"Dude get lost, ya ishs off..
Put mah pee inside a watergun and spray it on you, just to leave you pissed off!"

Whahahaha >.<"

Some people have a closed mind, their loss.

honestly, its rap thats the dumb music
raps about wealth, violence, misogyny. hip-hop is about life.
whoever said 'hiphop isnt music' to you was just probably talking about rap, but then again yeah they could have been talking about hip-hop music as a whole
but its only because theyre unfimiliar with everything that goes with it, its easy to disagree with what you dont understand and thats exactly what seems to be the case here.
we identify with the lyrics and subject matter often spoken in hip-hop music because alot of us have lived or still are living that life so its real to us. others with more fortunate lives may be going through some personal emotional stuff which is what alot of metal music focuses on so that feels real to them.
so because we put alot of our passion into our own tastes in music, that passion stays there and there only which makes it so easy to disagree with other styles and genres

I've never understood why rock heads criticise hip-hop for degrading women, being obsessed with money and drugs.
The tagline for rock is "Sex, drugs and rock n roll"... And there known for destroying fancy expensive hotels and blowing lots of money...

But as AGC said, their loss. I gave up caring what others think of hip-hop, I only care if you are interested in hip-hop

Pop culture in general is exploitive, that's a different thing than Hip Hop culture or Rap culture or Rock and Roll culture. I listen to Steve Vai all the time, I don't hear any degrading of women. I just think prejudice is an ugly thing in general. Music is just music, some people (in all styles) make music that is geared toward lifting people up, some people (in all styles) are desparate MFs trying to make a quick buck and will say/do anything to do so. It happens in all forms of music, some people are doing it for the wrong reason. But that's everything, I met car salesmen that I found to be honest and trustworthy.

What's really silly about the whole thing is that if you go back to Willie Dixon, Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters ect. rock and roll and hip hop are "1st cousins" at most (if you follow the "geneology" so to speak)

I find most people who make statements like that to be rather ignorant. I don't argue with children when they tell me Santa Claus exists, I don't argue with people who believe that "race" (a completely made up bunch of catagories meant to exploit people) exists and I don't argue with people who don't even know what the technical elements of the music they listen to is comprised of.

I also don't argue with somebody about the definition of producer (which I would argue is what Clive Davis/Simon Cowell does and NOT what say RZA does if you follow the "classic" definition of the word. Of course guys like George Martin of the Beatles and Babyface redifined the role of the "producer" but a producer "back in the day" a producer was the liason between the label and the artist, the guy who called up composers and musicians and engineers to work with an artist not the guy who did each of those things.

I think the record labels have asked too much of people and the quality of music as a whole has suffered. I think when you look at music from periods when the music business is good there is a division of labor that allows people to do what they do best.

Nowadays your almost expected to own your own label, perform A & R duties, arrange, compose, play instruments, mix .... I think it's possible that one person can do all this but... how often does Dre put out an album? It's a lot to "expect" from one person. Especially when that person ain't getting paid the combined salaries of all those job titles. When people say Dre makes 100k for a beat, he's getting paid for a lot more than "producing" in my opinion.

Nowadays your almost expected to own your own label, perform A & R duties, arrange, compose, play instruments, mix .... I think it's possible that one person can do all this but... how often does Dre put out an album? It's a lot to "expect" from one person. Especially when that person ain't getting paid the combined salaries of all those job titles. When people say Dre makes 100k for a beat, he's getting paid for a lot more than "producing" in my opinion.

couldn't have put it better myself

hip hop as a general term consists of music and other elements - dance, grafitti, DJing.

Musically speaking of course it's music because it contains musical elements such as notes, chords, rhythms, etc. Anyone who denies this is close minded and/or ignorant.

I think what some people disregard is the rapping + the fact that much hip hop music is sampled and thereby leads to a feeling that the only original part of it is the rapping which many will see as non-musical. their loss.

but u see, here is my thing, was a song without words, it jus a beat, rappers/singers complete the song, i can understand people not liking new rappers like soulja boy etc, but people like kanye, jay-z, common, lupe, they say sum genius ish, biggie smalls is one of the only rappers 2 have a freestyle and it gets people movin, theres no notes but it's still music. 2 me, music is more than notes and chords, jus like art is more than paint and paper. it's how it makes u feel, biggie made music even when there wasn't a beat. but then again like young vito said, people who listen 2 rock probably can't relate to the lyrics in rap songs. but i don't believe in the whole ignorance is bliss thing. not to many things get under my skin. but this does.

Some of these critics don't know the origins of 'THE ART OF HIP HOP' they would be called "LOST" so you have people who are lost musically when it comes to hip hop because the were not there in the beginning when it was graffiti, breakdancing, poplocking, kangols, lee jeans, cazell glasses, shearling coats, leather bombers, running electricity from a telephone pole to an abandoned building just to have a party these things were hip hop back in tha day and is very non existent when you ask a new jack what they know about hip hop. To me RAPPING= RAP is a part of hip hop i don't know how the two became separated or how so many hip hop elite could subdivide the genre why because there are no more elements of the original art. POPPYCOCK

DC Collins, Wazzup!?!

I feel you about ignorance and ish but what can you do?

I mean if you asked me who changed the world the most in the last oh, I don't know, 50 years or so I'd have to think about it... but way up on my list would be Jim Henson (Sesame Street/ Muppets) and Stan Lee (Marvel Comics). I think focusing on teaching the youth about tolerance and understanding and letting them "educate" their parents when they get older is much more effective than argueing with someone who has no motivation to "open their mind".

When they (lazy closed minded people) drop off their kids for guitar/bass lessons I get paid to brainwash em'! You like Metallica huh? Hey that riff is just like this Howlin' Wolf lick => Jimi Hendrix => James Brown => Hip Hop! (I'm slightly oversimplifying, but not much). When kids see the connections they "get it". It's all "Amerrican music" to me. Old dogs, new tricks? I ain't saying it ain't possible to ever change an adults mind but...

It's like whenever I read somewhere that Eddie Van Halen says he wasn't "influenced" by Jimi Hendrix I laugh so hard I just about pee myself. He talks about how a Clapton album that was directly influenced by Hendrix (Claptons own admisssion) was his main influence. It would be funny if it wasn't so asinine.

I feel the same way when people say they like Hip Hop but not rock and roll. G-Funk => George Clinton, listen to maggot brain. Dem niggas playin' some serious rock and roll, it's up there with "Frankenstien" by Edgar Winter.

Radio and record execs make these artifical catagories that basically go back to "race music". People stay in their little boxes like they are told. It's sad...

I like the way you put that slliks... imo people who know little or nothing about hip-hop define it as all the commercial rap that you see nowadays on music videos and hear on the radio. Hip-hop started underground and it seems most its core values still is. It is safe to say that ignorance is growing in younger audiences. It gets even worse on the commercial side when they major labels notice that this generation (their main audience and therefore greatest source of income) gravitates toward this ignorance. The more it catches on to the youth, the farther down hil it goes. If all you do is watch BET\MTV and listen to that popular radio station, then its all your ever exposed to. A lot of people are trying to live out images portrayed by many artists that only transmit this image because they know it will sell. A lot of times they don't even beleive in what they are saying. Hip-hop is based on creatvity, induviduality, and being able to relate to the messages and styles brought along. If you are spitting lyrics that doesn't represent you as a person, how is it art? How is it hip-hop?

Anyone that tells you hip-hop isn't music is ignorant as hell.

Music is what you make it.

Don't let em get you down. At all.

Ok here's my take on this. Basically hip hop is obviously music and you'd be a fool to argue with that but it's the rapping where the confusion lies. Singing is rythmic and melodic where as rapping is only melodic, which doesn't make it not music though it could be considered less musical or even not musical by some. This opinion isn't completely idiodic because poetry has rhythm and yet isn't considered music. But that arguement isn't really practical because in hip hop rapping is (supposed to be) in time with the music which makes it musical. Though the real arguement comes when you start listenning to hip hop where the rapping isn't even in time with the music (you can only call it syncopation to a certain extent after that you just have to face the facts that its out of time) in which case it just becomes poetry with music and in that case it wouldn't be musical.

That's my run down of it.

Posted By MR. Dade County on 15 Oct 2009 06:09 PM
ok, i here alot of people say that they don't like hiphop cuz it's not music. i've been hearin it alot lately and it's startin 2 piss me off. i love hip-hop so much that i bleed it. ya feel me. so i ask this one person why do u think hiphop isn't music, he said because all rappers talk about nonsense, theres no message, and that since theres no band, theres no music. now, not to offend any rock fans, but i thought that was some straight bullish, listen 2 some demonic rock ish, they have a band but all they do is scream, there songs don't have a message but he calls that ish music. my question is, why isn't hip-hop considered music, and why isn't producers considered musians

"All rappers talk about is nonsense/There's no message". True, the majority of Rappers provide nothing but content aimed at selling something-be it a lifestyle, product, etc. But the same argument can be raised for just about every other popular genre...

"Since there's no band, there's no music". A ridiculous comment, he's a certified dimwit if he actually said this.

In regards to producers not being considered musicians; Producers aren't considered musicians because producers are typically not musicians. You wouldn't consider a producer on a TV Show an Actor, would you?

The problem that has always plagued the hiphop genre is immaturity coupled with a general lack of professionalism and business knowledge. This is the primary reason why the genre is not respected and hasn't progressed at all in recent years.

Finally, Hiphop definitely needs a face-lift. It's time the genre represented something other than criminal behavior/lavish spending/promiscuity/etc etc etc, OR at least approached the themes in a completely different way. I have low hopes.

Posted By A.G.C. on 16 Oct 2009 12:49 PM
DC Collins, Wazzup!?!

I feel you about ignorance and ish but what can you do?

I mean if you asked me who changed the world the most in the last oh, I don't know, 50 years or so I'd have to think about it... but way up on my list would be Jim Henson (Sesame Street/ Muppets) and Stan Lee (Marvel Comics). I think focusing on teaching the youth about tolerance and understanding and letting them "educate" their parents when they get older is much more effective than argueing with someone who has no motivation to "open their mind".

When they (lazy closed minded people) drop off their kids for guitar/bass lessons I get paid to brainwash em'! You like Metallica huh? Hey that riff is just like this Howlin' Wolf lick => Jimi Hendrix => James Brown => Hip Hop! (I'm slightly oversimplifying, but not much). When kids see the connections they "get it". It's all "Amerrican music" to me. Old dogs, new tricks? I ain't saying it ain't possible to ever change an adults mind but...

It's like whenever I read somewhere that Eddie Van Halen says he wasn't "influenced" by Jimi Hendrix I laugh so hard I just about pee myself. He talks about how a Clapton album that was directly influenced by Hendrix (Claptons own admisssion) was his main influence. It would be funny if it wasn't so asinine.

I feel the same way when people say they like Hip Hop but not rock and roll. G-Funk => George Clinton, listen to maggot brain. Dem niggas playin' some serious rock and roll, it's up there with "Frankenstien" by Edgar Winter.

Radio and record execs make these artifical catagories that basically go back to "race music". People stay in their little boxes like they are told. It's sad...

A lot of people don't actually know that Rock music originated from black people. To be brutally honest it's not surprising that black people were robbed of yet another thing, but it is a damn shame that the genre is now completely dominated by Caucasians. It's the same situation with trance/electronic a.k.a dance music.

Don't want to turn this into some sort of race war so I'll leave it at that.

I think its caus Hip Hop is so surreal to the average listener to the point where its become a joke, to white people in particular. So when they get that general idea instead of taking the time to acknowledge the lyrics, they just assume its all bullish, you know what i mean, its hard to explain. Its all about understanding and thinking in other peoples perspectives when it comes to hip hop i reckon. T o make it worse, the chart toppers tend to be retards like Soulja Boy and T-Pain who's lyrics mean absolutely nothnig.

Then theres the "Stop complaining and do something with your life other than gangbanging" comment which comes back to looking at things from another point of view. Instead of taking the time to think why rappers are brought up like they are, other than studio thugs, people get irritated by it.....which leads all the way back to racism, i'm not gonna go into that but im just gonna say, if it wasnt for the KKK - rappers wouldnt be here today.I'm from Australia and one of the few non-african americans to wonder why Gangsta Rap, in particular, is as bad as people think it is. Think about it.

Well I'm an white aussie who does understand the problems with gangster rap. First problem is the content. If you are an Australian you would have to have some concept of tall poppy syndrome? Well no one wants to here about how these guys are better then other people. And then there is the whole "gangster" aspect of it, I don't want to here about people getting shot up or smuggling drugs, people can't relate. And then there is the gratuitous use of swearing I mean why be so offensive, it's uncalled for.   

Posted By Fobuo Fobuo on 16 Oct 2009 10:51 PM

Posted By A.G.C. on 16 Oct 2009 12:49 PM
DC Collins, Wazzup!?!

I feel you about ignorance and ish but what can you do?

I mean if you asked me who changed the world the most in the last oh, I don't know, 50 years or so I'd have to think about it... but way up on my list would be Jim Henson (Sesame Street/ Muppets) and Stan Lee (Marvel Comics). I think focusing on teaching the youth about tolerance and understanding and letting them "educate" their parents when they get older is much more effective than argueing with someone who has no motivation to "open their mind".

When they (lazy closed minded people) drop off their kids for guitar/bass lessons I get paid to brainwash em'! You like Metallica huh? Hey that riff is just like this Howlin' Wolf lick => Jimi Hendrix => James Brown => Hip Hop! (I'm slightly oversimplifying, but not much). When kids see the connections they "get it". It's all "Amerrican music" to me. Old dogs, new tricks? I ain't saying it ain't possible to ever change an adults mind but...

It's like whenever I read somewhere that Eddie Van Halen says he wasn't "influenced" by Jimi Hendrix I laugh so hard I just about pee myself. He talks about how a Clapton album that was directly influenced by Hendrix (Claptons own admisssion) was his main influence. It would be funny if it wasn't so asinine.

I feel the same way when people say they like Hip Hop but not rock and roll. G-Funk => George Clinton, listen to maggot brain. Dem niggas playin' some serious rock and roll, it's up there with "Frankenstien" by Edgar Winter.

Radio and record execs make these artifical catagories that basically go back to "race music". People stay in their little boxes like they are told. It's sad...

A lot of people don't actually know that Rock music originated from black people. To be brutally honest it's not surprising that black people were robbed of yet another thing, but it is a damn shame that the genre is now completely dominated by Caucasians. It's the same situation with trance/electronic a.k.a dance music.

Don't want to turn this into some sort of race war so I'll leave it at that.

Black people influenced rock music but if you listen to the black rock from the start and then to the rock that is around now they barely resembal eachother. It's as much influenced by Bach and Beethoven and all the other white classical musicians as it is by any black musicians. And what do you mean black people were robbed of it? If we're all supposed to be equal why should it belong to white poeple any more then it does to black people?

Posted By Fisha on 17 Oct 2009 02:46 AM
Well I'm an white aussie who does understand the problems with gangster rap. First problem is the content. If you are an Australian you would have to have some concept of tall poppy syndrome? Well no one wants to here about how these guys are better then other people. And then there is the whole "gangster" aspect of it, I don't want to here about people getting shot up or smuggling drugs, people can't relate. And then there is the gratuitous use of swearing I mean why be so offensive, it's uncalled for.   

Posted By Fobuo Fobuo on 16 Oct 2009 10:51 PM

Posted By A.G.C. on 16 Oct 2009 12:49 PM
DC Collins, Wazzup!?!

I feel you about ignorance and ish but what can you do?

I mean if you asked me who changed the world the most in the last oh, I don't know, 50 years or so I'd have to think about it... but way up on my list would be Jim Henson (Sesame Street/ Muppets) and Stan Lee (Marvel Comics). I think focusing on teaching the youth about tolerance and understanding and letting them "educate" their parents when they get older is much more effective than argueing with someone who has no motivation to "open their mind".

When they (lazy closed minded people) drop off their kids for guitar/bass lessons I get paid to brainwash em'! You like Metallica huh? Hey that riff is just like this Howlin' Wolf lick => Jimi Hendrix => James Brown => Hip Hop! (I'm slightly oversimplifying, but not much). When kids see the connections they "get it". It's all "Amerrican music" to me. Old dogs, new tricks? I ain't saying it ain't possible to ever change an adults mind but...

It's like whenever I read somewhere that Eddie Van Halen says he wasn't "influenced" by Jimi Hendrix I laugh so hard I just about pee myself. He talks about how a Clapton album that was directly influenced by Hendrix (Claptons own admisssion) was his main influence. It would be funny if it wasn't so asinine.

I feel the same way when people say they like Hip Hop but not rock and roll. G-Funk => George Clinton, listen to maggot brain. Dem niggas playin' some serious rock and roll, it's up there with "Frankenstien" by Edgar Winter.

Radio and record execs make these artifical catagories that basically go back to "race music". People stay in their little boxes like they are told. It's sad...

A lot of people don't actually know that Rock music originated from black people. To be brutally honest it's not surprising that black people were robbed of yet another thing, but it is a damn shame that the genre is now completely dominated by Caucasians. It's the same situation with trance/electronic a.k.a dance music.

Don't want to turn this into some sort of race war so I'll leave it at that.

Black people influenced rock music but if you listen to the black rock from the start and then to the rock that is around now they barely resembal eachother. It's as much influenced by Bach and Beethoven and all the other white classical musicians as it is by any black musicians. And what do you mean black people were robbed of it? If we're all supposed to be equal why should it belong to white poeple any more then it does to black people?

Of course modern Rock doesn't sound the same, modern Rap doesn't sound like the old rap either. It's still the same genre.

You're right, music of all things shouldn't 'belong' to a specific race. Let's leave it at that shall we.

Like I said I personally don't believe in "race". "Black music" is as much influenced by "white music" as "white music" is influenced by "black music". My point was that at the heart of a lot of the "rap or hip hop" ain't music is a racial undertone that is at best ignorant of the interdependancy of cultures that has produced the best music.

I mean without Rick Rubin where would rap be? I got into rap through the Beastie Boys (dating myself) "fight for the right to party". (Well actually I heard "the message" and the Sugarhill gang and Kurtis Blow on the radio but the Beastie Boys was the first record I bought).

All my early musical mentors in Jazz were white men who had more respect for African American musical traditions than I did in high school. I wouldn't know any of the things that allowed me to make a living as a musicain for years without the help of a "white" man named Don Aliquo. This guy gave me music lessons for hours every week for free before I went in the Army in high school and after I got home. He taught me almost everything technical (scales, chords, theory, improvisation, Jazz history) I know about "black music". Funny huh? He transcribed ish for me so I could get a gig from someone that originally turned me down cause I didn't play "black enough". Now aint' that some funny ish? I got the job.

I am not saying black people got ripped off musically or anything, to paraphase somebody famous, "good musicans copy, great ones steal". I will steal from anybody's culture if I like something sorry, but that's the way I feel about it.  I have some serious country chops.  Ray Charles was quite open about his influence from country music, was he any less of a musicain for it?

The real issue in question is do what people buy and sell as music in music stores qualify as music?  Kind of answers itself if you ask me.  Fisha made a good point about the lack of melodic content in rapping, who would argue that drumming isn't music?  Now if we want to talk about who is good and who sucks, even though they sell a lot of records, that's different.  You know who sucks?  ... never mind... I'm sure a lot of people like this particular rapper and I ain't trying to offend no one.  It's not professional.

Off topic I love that bullish by Jimmy thing, that's some of the funniest ish I ever saw. Nice one!